Posted by Lorraine on December 10, 1997 at 23:14:21:

I'd love some input on handleing and showing Stallions. I'd just like to know as much as I can.

Posted by Rhonda on December 11, 1997 at 20:05:41:

In Reply to: Stallions posted by Lorraine on December 10, 1997 at 23:14:21:

When riding a Stallion they will put a dollop of Vicks salve in the nostrils of the stud. Virtually gauranteeing that the stud cannot smell anything else, therefore giving you a great horse. But should you forget, Then HONEY DUCK cause all hecks gonna break loose. If you are just leaving a stud colt a stud for the "prestige" of it, forget it.. If you are going to use him for breeding (and I have to say, it would only be if he was a great horse to add to the genepool) then don't cut him.. I have a 4 yr old walker gelding, been gelded since he was 18 months old, but if you ask his opinion, he doesn't remember being cut and is stallion thru and thru.. Each horse is different with many ways of dealing with their idiosyncrasies.. Find out whats best for you and your horse then go from there..

Posted by Lorraine on December 11, 1997 at 22:37:07:

In Reply to: Alot of people might not mention...msg posted by Rhonda on December 11, 1997 at 20:05:41:

thanks for your input. I am standing my Stud he's 2 now and covered 5 mares this year. And we're booking for next year. I do use vicks and have shown him in hand with other Aged Stalloins and he was fine. I've riden and broke a few stallions this year but never had the chance to show one in saddle. Even thought I break horses for a living I think there is always room for improvment and learning more. You never know enough... Thanks Again....

Posted by David on December 11, 1997 at 13:18:23:

In Reply to: Stallions posted by Lorraine on December 10, 1997 at 23:14:21:

Tomorrow I am scheduled to have 2 colts gelded. But I have recently been laboring over whether or not to have one of them left alone.

The colt in questions is a reg. QH with a nice conformation, but not spectacular. I have no interest in breeding or showing, only trails and lots of quality training.

This colt is currently vary docile and pleasant to work with, almost boring. My concern is that the castration will cause him to be even more lethargic. I have got this crazy idea that leaving him a stallion will make for a better ride. I wish I could predict the outcome. I am going to talk it over with the vet - I know he will advise me to have him gelded.

The other colt is a real ' hot wire ' appaloosa, also registered with even better conformation. The papers make reference to nez perce.

oh well

Posted by Mariah on December 11, 1997 at 15:37:41:

In Reply to: Interesting subject posted by David on December 11, 1997 at 13:18:23:

If you are not going to breed, don't bother yourself with keeping him a stallion. It is fun, but it is a lot of work and you can't let your guard down. I don't mean that in a bad way, but you do have to stay alert and sometimes it it just nice to not have to worry (i.e. - a gelding. mares can get just as temperamental as stallions!)

One other reason to keep him a stallion might be if you plan anytime in the next few years on selling him and you feel his worth would be greater as a stud.

This is always a major decision and an irreparable one. As I have mentioned before I have a super gelding, wins at absolutely everything - I gelded him only because he went nuts around my daughters mare - no other mares - just her but that was the one we showed with all the time. I already had a Legion of Honor stallion at the time and figured I didn't need two.

Since then I have had many people tell me they wished I hadn't gelded him. I wish I hadn't - he was good except for the one mare. AND...she died of colic one year later AND...my old Legion of Honor stallion died two years later! So, here I am at the moment with no stallion and the two reasons I gelded him are gone!

Anyway, good luck on making your decisions.

Posted by Shelby on December 11, 1997 at 16:07:59:

In Reply to: Re: Interesting subject posted by Mariah on December 11, 1997 at 15:37:41:

you must use your imagination to understand how interesting it can be. Picture yourself astride a two year old Percheron stallion, black as the Ace of Spades except for one white foot. He has a huge neck already, and is about 1800 of SOLID muscle, carrying most of it in his shoulders and neck -- and you are riding with a nice snaffle because after all this is a two year old BABY and you don't want to hurt his tender mouth.

As you reach the crest of hill, across a small valley are two ancient mares who keep him company. But it is Spring, and young colt's fancy turns to . . .

Now the meaning of "passenger" comes to play because from the moment he sees the two old nags, he has become the Stallion in Venus and Adonis -- and he ain't listening to you no more! You get to spend a lot of time sitting on his back cussing him with the words you've only heard before because he's in LOVE and he dances and prances and circles and wheels and struts his stuff until you are dizzy and you can't get off because he won't hold still for a second.

Finally, finally, the two old ladies walk to the barn and you are able to dismount.

It is terrifying to be on a horse you cannot control -- and when you talk to other horsemen they say --"what do you expect? He's a stud." So the Perch is now a gelding and no more problem.

I'd rather ride a gelding than watch a stallion.

Shelby

Posted by Mariah on December 11, 1997 at 11:20:07:

In Reply to: Stallions posted by Lorraine on December 10, 1997 at 23:14:21:

Stallions are the most fun to ride if.....you know the horse, are secure in your seat, not nervous (because any horse, particularly a stallion, will sense that immediately), and are not the kind to forget that you are on a stud.

I have owned and trained stallions since I was 18 years old (my second horse was a stallion, my first a rank Quarter gelding). I love their spirit and alertness but..you do have to be aware when you are in a group of horses. You have to ask, if the mare isn't already letting you know, whether a mare is in heat or not at a show so that you don't get too close to her. Some mares do not "show" as vividly as others. Often you have to warn others to steer clear when passing. NOTE: Riders should "steer clear" anyway, but many riders are obnoxious and if they don't think they are in danger - i.e. getting kicked or bred - they will run into you.

A well trained stud will not pay attention (at least not ignore your commands) at a show. But this can vary from stud to stud. My stallions are trained to be ready to breed when a stud chain goes over the nose and I am NOT in the saddle. I never use a chain over the nose any other time. I don't tolerate screaming at any time - in the saddle or out when I am handling them - in the stall is their territory. I don't tolerate walking on the hind legs getting to the breeding area, either. This promotes striking and can be dangerous.

I have had studs that have taken a particular shine to a particular mare and I had to be very careful around that mare.

My children have always rode my stallions (my children are not children anymore though since my daughter turned 18 last month - oh, GOD, I feel old!) so it is imperative that any stallion I own have the best dispositions.

If you are considering a stud, consider the disposition FIRST. Conformation is important but comformation is no good if you can't handle the horse.

But, in most cases, the cost of keeping a stud can be greater than what it would cost to take your mare(s) to a breeder unless you have a lot of mares to breed. I breed to outside mares so this is one reason I have stallions, other than the fact I enjoy riding them.

Think about this and as one other person said, go visit other breeders and see their studs, how they are kept, how they are handled and how they are shown. This will tell you a lot about their disposition and handling.

Posted by Shelby on December 11, 1997 at 08:41:04:

In Reply to: Stallions posted by Lorraine on December 10, 1997 at 23:14:21:

credit to his breed and has the pedigree or show record to prove it. Otherwise, you've got more headache than its worth.

I've had two stallions on the place at various times, despite the fact we do not breed horses. One was kept intact to see "how he turned out" after lookng pretty bad at two. He had the papers and the breeding, but he was sycle hocked.

He was ok to handle, until he got his mind on the ladies and then he was very bratty -- so at three he was cut and is a nice gelding.

The second horse, the Percheron, was cut at the last possilbe minute because he had a fine line and we thought abouot selling him for a stud horse. But we kept him. So we cut him. At 2100 pounds you have to have unbelievably massive fence to keep a Perch stud confined. Even then . . .

The danger is when the horse is interested in mares, he doesn't always remember his training (there are exceptions I'm sure) but there are far more horror stories.

If you keep your horse a stud and show him, you will have to always treat him with "respect" and keep him in "special" quarters unless you let him run with the mares. Even that is somewhat dangerous, to him, because if a lady is scented, he may go over or through a fence to visit.

Ours went through a fence to follow a cute pino pony in heat that was trotting down the road with a little kid on her back -- talk about a lawsuit waiting to happen!

And they can be unpredictable. My vet (and yours too) can tell you a lot of stories. One was the Amish guy who always worked his stud in harness with the gelding beside him --for years and years. One day the guy was unharnesseing , same as always, and the stud bit off his thumb.

So, I guess I feel that the detrements outweigh the benefits. A good gelding has more "use" than a good stud in the average person's stable. You can trail ride, put the kids on, turn them out with mares, and keep them in regular old horse type fencing without worry.

Of course if you're breeding, then it's a different ball game.

Shelby

Posted by Brad on December 11, 1997 at 04:03:01:

In Reply to: Stallions posted by Lorraine on December 10, 1997 at 23:14:21: You probably need to learn about handling stallions in person -- from my experience, the

successful handlers are always wary and respectful. Stallions will often go through hormone surges as strong as a mare, but like a guy, may go hormonal at the drop of a hat.

The stallion can be trained to avoid unacceptable behavior, and are often worked (it is good for their development, condition, and mental state). I plan to leave the stallions to the breeders and very experienced handlers.

Brad

Posted by Jennifer on December 11, 1997 at 11:11:10:

In Reply to: Re: Stallions posted by Brad on December 11, 1997 at 04:03:01:

There's a book you might want to get called "The Stallion" by James P. McCall, Ph.D. You can encounter all different types of stallions (personality wise), but the one thing I have learned through personal experience is don't ever fully trust them no matter how calm they are acting. Even the kindest ones can go from being like an old gelding to a wild horse in just a matter of a second if the conditions are right. I like stallions, but they are different than geldings and mares and should be treated that way.

Posted by Shelby on December 11, 1997 at 11:59:33:

In Reply to: Re: Stallions posted by Jennifer on December 11, 1997 at 11:11:10:

disservice to the horse world with "The Black Stallion" who never once expressed "stud" behavior in any of the books -- but then neither did Alec Ramsey -- did he? I don't recall that he ever had a girlfried although I think there was one girl in the series who had a horse.

I've always thought Will James' "Smokey" was so much more 'horse' than The Black Stallion, but maybe the whole stuck on a desert island idea (with your horse, of course) is such a univerasal appeal -- except the seaweed part -- yuck!

And I assume everyone knew Farley was 18 when he wrote the book.

Shelby

Posted by Anneli on December 11, 1997 at 17:48:20:

In Reply to: On the subject of "stallion books" I think Farley did a huge (more) posted by Shelby on December 11, 1997 at 11:59:33:

I belive it was in one of the last books. It was written in 1971 or something like that. Unfortunally, I donīt know the title in English (the Swedish title is 'Svarta hingsten och flickan', which means 'The black stallion and the girl'). In this book, Alec employes a girl to ride the young horses and Henry is against it. Naturally, the girl is very good, Alec falls in love with her, she is injured in an accident when her favourite horse Black Sand is killed and in the end she rides Black himself in a race. I remember this book as a more or less feminist book. Farley was clearly stating that women could be as good with horses -even race horses- as men.

But I havenīt red it in 15 years or so, so mabye I should think differently of the book now...

Regards Anneli

Posted by Mariah on December 12, 1997 at 10:24:07:

In Reply to: As a matter of fact, Alec DID meet a girl in the end (more) posted by Anneli on December 11, 1997 at 17:48:20:

Well, at the risk of making all our male friends angry....

Women have always been better with horses in general, and stallions in particular. This comes in part from the fact that women KNOW they can't manhandle a horse.

Women have a love for horses that never dies. A lot of kids, boys and girls, are enamored with horses, but when the "car" age rolls around most boys forget the horses, but not most of the girls!

They use psychology and love and trust to make a horse do what they want, where a lot of men (not all, mind you) have this macho image of horses and men and think strength can make a difference. Of course, it can't.

In the show ring in my area, most of the stallions are ridden by women, most of them are trained by women. Makes you wonder why, doesn't it?

Of course, there are those males, like a farrier I used many years ago. He was always telling me he expected to find me dead - that women have no business handling stallions. Well, guess who died abusing a stallion? Not me!

Posted by STP on December 12, 1997 at 11:40:46:

In Reply to: Women have a natural affinity for horses posted by Mariah on December 12, 1997 at 10:24:07:

My farrier, who is a man, agrees with you. He said of the horses that he shoes, 85% or more are owned by women. What he said was that there might be a man and a woman who both legally own the horse but it's the woman who is really bonded with the horse. I asked him why he thought this was and he said that he felt it was an issue of control--that men tend to want to be boss more often (note that I said "tend" and "often"...not always) and that it takes a subtle game of respect, discipline and love to enlist a horse's cooperation; you can bully them and force them into obeying but you can't force anyone or anything into cooperation. This man, by the way, comes from a "horsey" family and has ridden and been around horses since he was old enough to walk.

This is not to say that men are incapable of subtley or cooperation. My observance is that they get better and better at it as they get older, but when they are young and in the grips of testosterone, more often they are intersted in conquering the world. And that is just fine with me, because after all, a man in the grips of testosterone can be a pretty exciting thing! I wonder if that is why women are so attracted to horses, perhaps stallions in particular--all that power, muscle and sinew, and let's face it--danger. Isn't that part of the reason that women are attracted to men? I don't mean attracted to with the idea of a relationship--I just mean watching a guy work out in the gym or chop wood or something hard and physical. Men are bigger and stronger and it's impressive to watch them work. I feel the same way when I watch my gelding run across the field and jump over the creek--it's impressive to see all the power in motion. And that he might trust me, and let ME lead HIM is is both ego-gratifying but also humbling, in the way that holding a baby is humbling.

Whew--this IS the gender studies and philosophy bulletin board, isn't it???

Posted by Brad on December 14, 1997 at 23:06:15:

In Reply to: Re: Women have a natural affinity for horses posted by STP on December 12, 1997 at 11:40:46:

Let me throw my $.02 worth.

Suppose that girls are shown more about caring for babies, and the kind of discipline that can be used. Suppose the only discipline boys are shown is what they receive. Which will be more likely to focus on nurturing the horse first, making discipline a part of the nurturing? Of course, Linda-Tellington Jones, John Lyon, and others are finding that this works well in animals as well as people. Not only does this notion pass the test of 'It Works!', but it also satisfies the science test of reproducible results.

Of course, if there was something organic that encouraged feelings of nurturing, then one gender might be more likely to bond to her horse...

Brad

Posted by Shelby on December 12, 1997 at 08:11:34:

In Reply to: As a matter of fact, Alec DID meet a girl in the end (more) posted by Anneli on December 11, 1997 at 17:48:20:

n/m

Posted by Mariah on December 11, 1997 at 15:45:21:

In Reply to: On the subject of "stallion books" I think Farley did a huge (more) posted by Shelby on December 11, 1997 at 11:59:33:

Nope! Didn't know he was 18, but I loved the movies. I personally knew the stallion used in the movies, but I wonder how many people caught the fact that the horse on the beach (an Arabian) was not the horse on the race track?

If they weren't horsepeople, or specifically, Arabian people, they probably didn't notice.

People have standins, but then animal stars do too!

Posted by carrie n on December 11, 1997 at 15:40:57:

In Reply to: On the subject of "stallion books" I think Farley did a huge (more) posted by Shelby on December 11, 1997 at 11:59:33:

My parents and I showed against the "Black Stallion" and he was far from a gentle man in public. In fact he got loose in the halter class and it took 10 minutes to catch him. As far as handling stallions don't ever turn your back on them and don't ever forget that they are stallions. It's when those rules are forgotten that people get hurt or killed. I'v trained now for 17yrs and seen some terriable things with stallions and handled some of the best tempered studs around. My advise to you would be to go and apprentice your self with a good trainer/handler and learn the ropes. Studs are nothing to fool with. best regards carrie n

Re: On the subject of "stallion books" I think Farley did a huge (more)

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Posted by codie on December 13, 1997 at 15:15:37:

In Reply to: Re: On the subject of "stallion books" I think Farley did a huge (more) posted by carrie n on December 11, 1997 at 15:40:57:

i have to agree with carrie on this...you always need to keep your eye on stallions. i cleaned stalls at a stable at home, and being naiive, i turned my back on a stallion who was rarin to go breed. luckily for me, the trainer was right there, and kept him from biting my back. i learned right there that you should never turn your back on a stud, especially at breeding time. definitely hook up with someone who knows what they are doing if you plan on showing, training, or keeping a stud. it's worthwhile, for both you and your stallion.

With grateful acknowledgents to the AcmePet Horse's Stable chat board
Brad